Posts Tagged ‘another jesus’

The Conversion of Protestants to Catholicism Through the Eucharist

By Roger Oakland

More and more Protestants are testifying they are being drawn to the Catholic Church, especially through the Eucharist. Some say they have encountered the presence of Christ in a new and exciting way. One such person is Presbyterian pastor Steven Muse. Muse is one of the contributing authors of Mary the Mother of All: Protestant Perspectives and Experiences of Medjugorje.

Madonna of Medjugorje

Madonna of Medjugorje (photo: bigstockphoto.com; used with permission)

According to Muse, his visit to Medjugorje was life changing, especially after he encountered the Eucharistic Christ. He states:

The fact remains that never before or since in my life have I had such an encounter with Christ in the Eucharist. I believe this is because I never received the bread and the wine as the Body and Blood of Christ, so what I loved in my heart and believed with my mind were never experienced as real in the here and now of my bodily presence as I encountered him again and again for the entire week. Sometimes this happened twice a day as I received Communion both in the morning at English Mass, and again in the evening at the Croatian Mass, where I did not even understand what they were saying or singing but only prayed the rosary in my own language with the others as if I had been saying “Hail Marys” all my life. What was true was that Father, Son and Holy Spirit were real. And Mary was real.1

While Muse testifies of a real encounter with Christ and then Mary while visiting Medjugorje, Protestant evangelist Benny Hinn made a prediction that Christ will be showing up on stage at his crusades. On March 29, 2000, Hinn made the following statement on his television program:

The Holy Spirit has spoken, He told me He is about to show up. Oh, I gotta tell you this just before we go. I had a word of prophecy from Ruth Heflin, you know who Ruth Heflin is? Ruth prophesied over me back in the seventies. Everything she said has happened. She just sent me a word through my wife and said: The Lord spoke to her audibly and said, that He is going to appear physically in one of our crusades in the next few months. Yeah, She … I’m telling ya she said, the Lord spoke to her audibly and said, tell Benny I’m going to appear physically on the platform in his meetings. Lord, do it in Phoenix, Arizona in the name of Jesus! And in Kenya too, Lord, please, Lord, in fact, do it in every crusade in Jesus’ name.2

For those who have followed the ministry of Benny Hinn, the previous statement should come as no great surprise. Hinn had previously claimed that Jesus materialized to him during a Catholic Mass while he was participating in Communion at a Catholic Church in Amarillo, Texas. Speaking with Paul Crouch on a Trinity Broadcasting Network “Praise the Lord Program” on December 24, 1997, Hinn described this experience:

The next thing I was feeling was actually the form of a body, the shape of a body. And my body … went totally numb.… And God really gave me a revelation that night, that when we partake communion, it’s not just communion, Paul [Crouch]. We are partaking Christ Jesus himself. He did not say, “Take, eat, this represents my body.” He said, “This is my body, broken for you…” When you partake communion, you’re partaking Christ, and that heals your body. When you partake Jesus how can you stay weak? … sick? … And so tonight, as we partake communion, we’re not partaking bread. We’re partaking what He said we would be partaking of: “This is my body.”3

While Benny Hinn would not be considered a Catholic by his followers, the previous statement indicates he has been influenced by the Catholic teaching of the Eucharistic Christ. Hinn’s ministry has had a powerful influence on people all over the world. It will be interesting to see if his acceptance of transubstantiation and the Presence of Christ in the Eucharist will become more and more apparent.

It should be noted, however, that the Catholic Church does not teach that transubstantiation occurs when a Protestant minister does a communion service. On the contrary, the official teaching is that only a Catholic priest has the power to perform this transformation of the bread and wine. So, in Benny Hinn’s case, he cannot perform the sacrament of the Eucharist even if he believes he is doing so. This places Hinn in an incredibly stalemated position, because if our position  is correct, then he is in error to believe in transubstantiation; but if he is right about transubstantiation, then he is wrong according to Catholic teaching to think he can perform it. And even if he were to become Catholic, he still could not perform the Eucharist because only the celibate can become priests.

Peter Kreeft’s Catholic Conversion

Peter Kreeft, Ph.D., a professor of philosophy at Boston College and a regular contributor to several Christian publications, is in wide demand as a speaker at conferences and is the author of over forty books dealing with spirituality, apologetics and philosophy.4 Kreeft, once a Dutch Reformed Protestant, converted to Catholicism and is considered by many to be a leader in the area of Christian apologetics, even by Protestants. One of Kreeft’s books is Ecumenical Jihad. The back cover of this book lists a number of endorsements by well-known evangelical leaders. For example:

Peter Kreeft is one of the premier apologists in America today, witty, incisive and powerful. On the front lines in today’s culture war, Kreeft is one of our most valiant intellectual warriors.5
—Chuck Colson

This racy little book opens up a far-reaching theme. With entertaining insight Kreeft looks into the attitudes, alliances and strategies that today’s state of affairs requires of believers. Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox alike need to ponder Peter Kreeft’s vision of things—preferably in discussion together. What if he is right?6—J. I. Packer

To understand Kreeft’s spiritual journey, it is helpful to examine a number of testimonial statements he made in Ecumenical Jihad.  Regarding the role that the Eucharist played in his conversion to Catholicism, he writes:

In my pilgrimage from Dutch Reformed Calvinism to Roman Catholicism, the one Catholic dogma that most drew me in was the Eucharist.7

Now, as a strong promoter of the Catholic Church, Kreeft believes the teaching of transubstantiation and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist has potential for winning other Protestants back to the Mother of All Churches. Although he recognizes the Catholic Church’s view on the Sacrament of the Eucharist was instrumental in bringing about division between Protestants and Catholics in the past, he believes the Eucharist has the potential to now be an evangelistic tool in bringing back the separated brethren to Catholicism. As he states in his book:

No Catholic dogma is so distinctive and so apparently anti-ecumenical as the dogma of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Yet this dogma may be the greatest cause of ecumenism and eventual reunion.7

Predicting that future ecumenism will be fostered by the very factors that once brought about division, Kreeft continues:

I found that this doctrine, which seemed to repel and divide, at the same time attracted and united. The same with Mary: she—who is a point of division between Catholics and Protestants—she may bring the churches together again and heal the tears in her Son’s visible body on earth, she, the very one who seems to divide Catholics from Protestants. The most distinctive Catholic doctrines, especially those concerning the Eucharist and Mary, may prove to be the most unifying and attracting ones.9

Kreeft expresses his heartfelt concern for those Protestants who still refuse to accept the Catholic teaching of the Real Presence of Christ in a wafer. He writes:

When I think how much my Protestant brothers and sisters are missing in not having Christ’s Real Presence in the Eucharist; when I kneel before the Eucharist and realize I am as truly in Christ’s presence as the apostles were but that my Protestant brothers and sisters don’t know that, don’t believe that—I at first feel a terrible gap between myself and them. What a tremendous thing they are missing!10

As there is even now a move by many Protestant/evangelicals toward Catholicism and the Eucharistic adoration, Kreeft’s longing to see them enter in may be fulfilled.

There are countless other testimonies like Kreeft’s who have had an encounter with the Eucharistic Christ. The New Evangelization program presently underway is definitely showing signs of success. Numerous other testimonies could be presented that confirm a mystical addictive spiritual power that seems to be drawing people to the Eucharistic Christ.

In almost every recorded conversion account, there exists a common denominator. Each person who has converted to the Catholic Church has done so based on profound, powerful, and often gratifying experiences. These people were first drawn by a feeling that they were missing some deeper spiritual encounter, while the Eucharistic experience brought a sense of satisfaction and fulfillment.

An experience-based Christianity focused on signs and wonders associated with the Eucharistic Christ is clearly influencing many Protestants and evangelicals.

Endnotes:
1. Sharon E. Cheston, Mary the Mother of All: Protestant Perspectives and Experiences of Medjugorje (Chicago, IL: Loyola University Press, 1994), section written by Steven Muse, p. 57, emphasis in the original.
2. Benny Hinn with Steve Brock, This is Your Day (700 Club Studios, Virginia Beach, VA, March 29, 2000), television broadcast.
3. Praise The Lord Show (Trinity Broadcasting Network, December 27, 1994).
4. See http://www.peterkreeft.com/about.htm.
5. Peter Kreeft, Ecumenical Jihad ( San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press, 1996), back cover, endorsement by Chuck Colson
6. Ibid., endorsement by J. I. Packer.
7. Ibid., p. 145.
8. Ibid.
9. Ibid., p. 158.
10. Ibid., p. 159.

To read about more Protestant conversions to Catholicism, read Another Jesus by Roger Oakland.

Pope Francis: An Apocalyptic Figure?

 By Jan Markell
Olive Tree Ministries

I am cautious about “pinning the tail” on the Antichrist and the False Prophet.  We cannot know ahead of time who these personalities are; however, Pope Francis comes close to “filling the bill” on the False Prophet. Or he may be but a “type” of that man just like there are many “types” of the Antichrist throughout history. I think the devil has always had a candidate for the Antichrist waiting in the wings as he doesn’t know when the final generation is.

The False Prophet is described in Revelation 13:11-15. He is also referred to as the “second beast” (Revelation 16:13, 19:20, 20:10). Together with the Antichrist and Satan, who empowers both of them, the False Prophet is the third party in the unholy trinity.

Pope Francis is revealing himself to be a blatant Marxist. He has also pulled back from issues Catholics have considered sacred. He apparently has replaced abortion with social justice and environmentalism. Most troubling, however, is his call for a “new world order” and that there be a global constitution, a global court and a one-world government. Scripture is clear that the Antichrist will be the head of a one-world government (Revelation 13).

Even conservative Catholics are sounding a warning that Pope Francis–the first Jesuit Pope–may be the most troubling Pope ever. He is raising apocalyptic concerns and some in the eschatological community feel that he, indeed, has gotten the nod to be the False Prophet.

 Roger Oakland, an apologist on Catholic doctrine, writes, “According to Bible prophecy, a one-world religion that will offer the promise of peace throughout the world is going to commence prior to Christ’s return. To most, this global body will seem like a wonderful thing and very possibly will be a pseudo-Christianity (coming in the Name of Christ); however, contrary to how the masses will view it, it will actually help establish and set up the Antichrist and his one-world government.”

He continues, “In order for this to happen, all religions must come together in an ecumenical plan. Today, as part of this Satanic scheme, the evangelical/Protestant church is being drawn seductively into the Roman Catholic Church, largely through what we call ‘the Jesuit agenda.’ Incredibly, while the evidence is obvious to some, the majority of proclaiming Christians are not at all aware it is happening.”

Oakland concludes, “So what should we expect if we are in the time when such a system unfolds? First, many who once were Protestant and Evangelical will become ecumenical. Second, all religions will unite in solidarity of purpose. Understanding the Jesuit agenda is essential if we are to understand how this worldwide deception will come about.”

Jan Markell is the founder and director of Olive Tree Ministries. Her radio program airs on 700 radio stations across America. She is the co-author of Trapped in Hitler’s Hell.

According to Rome, True Evangelization Not Complete Until A Christian Becomes Catholic

By Roger Oakland

Transubstantiation

We cannot fully comprehend the meaning of the Eucharist without understanding the term transubstantiation. Catholic author Joan Carroll Cruz provides the following definition:

The word officially approved by the Council of Trent to express the changing of the entire substance of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. After the Consecration only the appearances, or “accidents” (color, taste, smell, quantity, etc.) of bread and wine remain.1

During the act of consecration (performed by a priest), the bread (wafer) and wine miraculously are transformed into the actual presence of Jesus Christ. While the bread and wine may appear to be still bread and wine following the consecration, a mystical process has occurred, it is believed. Thus, Jesus is supposed to be physically present on the altar and physically eaten when the recipient ingests the consecrated wafer.

The January/February 2000 issue of Envoy Magazine (a bimonthly journal of Catholic apologetics and evangelization) further confirms what I am saying. The purpose for publishing this magazine “is to present the truths of the Catholic Faith in a fresh, contemporary style, featuring today’s top Catholic writers, full color-graphics, and an upbeat innovative format.”2

Located on the front cover of this issue is an illustration that shows the hands of a Catholic priest holding up a consecrated wafer, the sky and clouds in the background. The title on the magazine cover reads: “This Looks Like Bread, Tastes Like Bread, and Feels Like Bread. Is this GOD?” The “O” (which is actually the consecrated wafer) is the conspicuous object on the cover. One article in this issue is written by David Armstrong, who states:

[L]et’s take a look at the actual nature of what occurs in the miracle of transubstantiation. Accidental change occurs when non-essential outward properties (accidents) are changed in some fashion. For example, water can take on the properties of solidity as ice, and of vapor as steam…. In our every day natural experience, a change of substance is always accompanied by a corresponding change of accidents, or outward properties. One example would be the metabolizing of food, which literally changes to become part of our bodies as a result of digestion.

But the Eucharist is a supernatural transformation, in which substantial change occurs without accidental change. Thus, the outward properties of bread and wine continue after consecration, but their essence and substance are replaced by the substance of the true and actual Body and Blood of Christ.3

Pope Francis holds up the Eucharist as he gives Mass

It is important to mention that Armstrong is a convert to Catholicism. He confides that at one time, he did not understand the importance of transubstantiation. However, Armstrong now asks: “How could I … have had such an insufficient understanding of the Holy Eucharist: the central focus of Christian worship?”4

Like many others who have converted to Catholicism, Armstrong was enlightened to the significance of the Eucharist by studying the Church Fathers. He writes:

The evidence for the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, among the Church Fathers, is the most compelling of any historic Christian doctrine which Protestants now dispute.5

Now Armstrong is convinced that the consecrated wafer and wine is God and that it is the true and actual body and blood of Christ. He concludes:

This is what requires faith, and what causes many to stumble, because it is a miracle of a very sophisticated nature, one that doesn’t lend itself to empirical or scientific “proof.” But, in a sense, it is no more difficult to believe than the changing of water to ice, in which the outward properties change, while the substance (molecular structure) doesn’t. The Eucharist merely involves the opposite scenario: the substance changes while the outward properties don’t.6

The Power of the Priest

According to Catholic documents, Catholic priests have the power to manifest the presence of Jesus on an altar. At the moment of Consecration, the miraculous process known as transubstantiation supposedly occurs. As Joan Carroll Cruz states in her book Eucharistic Miracles:

The wafer of unleavened bread which becomes the Body and Blood of Christ at the moment of Consecration in the Mass. (One large Host for the priest and many small Hosts for the congregation are consecrated at Mass). The word derives from the Latin hostia, or “victim” since in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass Jesus Christ offers Himself to God the Father as the victim and propitiation for our sins. (Thus each Mass is the renewal of the one Sacrifice of Calvary).7

To support this view, Catholics claim that transubstantiation was taught by Jesus at the Last Supper. Further, it is also believed it was at this time that Jesus anointed His disciples with this power to transform bread and wine into the actual presence of Christ. In turn, the Catholic Church teaches that this power was then transferred down through the centuries to a select chosen priesthood by apostolic succession and priestly ordination.

David Pearson, another contributing author for Envoy Magazine, explains this scenario in his article “Do Catholics Worship Cookies?” He writes:

[T]he first communicants received the First Communion from the Great High Priest himself. The unblemished Lamb of God, about to be sacrificed for their sins and those of the whole world for all time, fed his twelve Apostles—our first band of bishops—His very body and blood, under the appearance of bread and wine, from His own hand.

That’s what happens today in every Mass. Jesus, God’s perfect Passover lamb, uses the graces of apostolic succession and priestly ordination (the “laying on of hands” in the early Church) to feed every generation on His flesh and blood until He returns in glory.8

Pearson quotes former Protestant, now Catholic Scott Hahn saying, “When Jesus comes again at the end of time, He will not have a single drop more glory than He has right now upon the altars and in the tabernacles of our churches.” Hahn adds:

Today, even though we are thousands of miles from that little hill in Israel, we are there with Jesus in the upper room, and we are there with Jesus in heaven, whenever we go to Mass.9

Scott Hahn on the Power of Priests

Scott Hahn is not only a convert to Catholicism but is also a zealous promoter of the Eucharist. Both he and his wife Kimberly have testified that the Eucharist played a major role in their conversion to the Catholic Church. Hahn, a theology professor at a Catholic University in Steubenville, Ohio, and author of a number of books, also writes a regular column called “Scripture Matters” for Envoy Magazine. In an article titled “The Paternal Order of Priests,” he enthusiastically reminds Catholic priests of the power they have been endowed with. He writes:

As priests of the New Covenant, you are conformed to Christ in a unique and powerful way. Christian tradition speaks of ordination in the most astonishing terms. It is a commonplace of Catholic speech to say that the priest is alter Christus, another Christ. The Catechism tells us further that the priest acts “in the person of Christ” and like Christ, he is a “living image of God the Father.” Through the ministry of ordained priests, the presence of Jesus Christ “is made visible in the community of believers.”10

Elevating the priesthood to a level of godhood, Hahn exalts ordinary sinful men, by saying:

Theologians refer to the ontological change—a change in the man’s very being—that occurs with the sacrament of Holy Orders. Ordination “confers an indelible spiritual character” that is permanent and imprinted … forever.”11

Then comparing this supernatural transformation attributed to priesthood with the transformation that occurs during the consecration of the Host, Hahn states:

The great Cappadocian Father Gregory of Nyssa compared this sacramental change to the transubstantiation that occurs in the Eucharist. “The bread,” he explains, “is at first common bread. But when the sacramental action consecrates it, it is called the Body of Christ … The same power of the word makes the priest worthy of veneration and honor. The new blessing separates him from common, ordinary life. Yesterday he was one of the crowd, one of the people. Now, suddenly he has become a guide, a leader, a teacher of righteousness, an instructor of hidden mysteries. And this he does without any change in body and form. But while he appears to be the man he was before, his invisible soul has really been transformed to a higher condition by some invisible power and grace.”12

Eucharistic Evangelization

Vatican spokesman and Catholic priest Tom Forest says that true evangelization is not complete in a Christian’s life until he or she becomes Catholic. He points out the importance of the sacraments. Catholic sources state that the sacrament of the Eucharist is the most important sacrament. For example, in Eucharistic Miracles, Joan Carroll Cruz, writes:

[The Eucharist is] the Sacrament in which, under the appearances of bread and wine, the Body and Blood of Christ are truly, really and substantially present as the grace-producing food of our souls. More specifically, the consecrated Host and the consecrated “wine,” that is, the Precious Blood.13

Or according to the Catholic Catechism, we read:

The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For the blessed Eucharist is contained in the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.”14

Further, to make it absolutely clear the Eucharist is at the heart and core of what it means to be a Catholic, the Catechism further notes:

In brief, the Eucharist is the sum and summary of our faith: “Our way of thinking is attuned to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn confirms our way of thinking.15

According to Catholic teachings, the Eucharist represents Christ as a sacrifice for sins and that during the “sacrifice of the Mass,” Christ is daily being sacrificed for our sins. The Catholic Catechism states:

The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner.16

It should be apparent then that the Eucharistic Jesus present on every Catholic altar is of paramount importance to Catholicism and the Catholic faith. Truly the Eucharistic Jesus is the Jesus of Catholicism. However, this Eucharistic Christ is NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Endnotes:

1. Joan Carroll Cruz, Eucharistic Miracles (Rockford, IL: Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., 1987), p. xiii, Imprimatur, Philip M. Hannan, Archbishop of New Orleans, April 25, 1986, p. xxii.
2. Envoy Magazine, “What is Envoy’s Mission?” (http://www.envoymagazine.com/guidelines.html, accessed 09/2007).
3. David Armstrong, “Is This God?” (Envoy Magazine, January/February 2000, http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/4.1/god.htm, accessed 09/2007).
4. Ibid.
5. Ibid.
6. Ibid.
7. Joan Carroll Cruz, Eucharistic Miracles, op. cit., p. xxi.
8. David Pearson, “Do Catholics Worship Cookies?” (Envoy, Volume 7.2, 2003), p. 14.
9. Ibid.
10. Scott Hahn, “The Paternal Order of Priests: An Open Letter to Our Catholic Clergy, In a Time of Crisis” (insert in Envoy, Volume 7.2, 2003) in insert.
11. Ibid.
12. Ibid.
13. Joan Carroll Cruz, Eucharistic Miracles, op. cit., p. xxi.
14. Catechism of the Catholic Church (New York, NY: Doubleday, First Image Books edition, Second Edition, April 1995), para. 1324, pp. 368-369.
15. Ibid., para. 1327, p. 369.
16. Ibid., para. 1367, p. 381.

Related Information:
 My Journey Out of Catholicism by David Dombrowski

The Conversion of Protestants to Catholicism Through the Eucharist

By Roger Oakland

More and more Protestants are testifying they are being drawn to the Catholic Church, especially through the Eucharist. Some say they have encountered the presence of Christ in a new and exciting way. One such person is Presbyterian pastor Steven Muse. Muse is one of the contributing authors of Mary the Mother of All: Protestant Perspectives and Experiences of Medjugorje.

Madonna of Medjugorje

Madonna of Medjugorje (photo: bigstockphoto.com; used with permission)

According to Muse, his visit to Medjugorje was life changing, especially after he encountered the Eucharistic Christ. He states:

The fact remains that never before or since in my life have I had such an encounter with Christ in the Eucharist. I believe this is because I never received the bread and the wine as the Body and Blood of Christ, so what I loved in my heart and believed with my mind were never experienced as real in the here and now of my bodily presence as I encountered him again and again for the entire week. Sometimes this happened twice a day as I received Communion both in the morning at English Mass, and again in the evening at the Croatian Mass, where I did not even understand what they were saying or singing but only prayed the rosary in my own language with the others as if I had been saying “Hail Marys” all my life. What was true was that Father, Son and Holy Spirit were real. And Mary was real.1

While Muse testifies of a real encounter with Christ and then Mary while visiting Medjugorje, Protestant evangelist Benny Hinn made a prediction that Christ will be showing up on stage at his crusades. On March 29, 2000, Hinn made the following statement on his television program:

The Holy Spirit has spoken, He told me He is about to show up. Oh, I gotta tell you this just before we go. I had a word of prophecy from Ruth Heflin, you know who Ruth Heflin is? Ruth prophesied over me back in the seventies. Everything she said has happened. She just sent me a word through my wife and said: The Lord spoke to her audibly and said, that He is going to appear physically in one of our crusades in the next few months. Yeah, She … I’m telling ya she said, the Lord spoke to her audibly and said, tell Benny I’m going to appear physically on the platform in his meetings. Lord, do it in Phoenix, Arizona in the name of Jesus! And in Kenya too, Lord, please, Lord, in fact, do it in every crusade in Jesus’ name.2

For those who have followed the ministry of Benny Hinn, the previous statement should come as no great surprise. Hinn had previously claimed that Jesus materialized to him during a Catholic Mass while he was participating in Communion at a Catholic Church in Amarillo, Texas. Speaking with Paul Crouch on a Trinity Broadcasting Network “Praise the Lord Program” on December 24, 1997, Hinn described this experience:

The next thing I was feeling was actually the form of a body, the shape of a body. And my body … went totally numb.… And God really gave me a revelation that night, that when we partake communion, it’s not just communion, Paul [Crouch]. We are partaking Christ Jesus himself. He did not say, “Take, eat, this represents my body.” He said, “This is my body, broken for you…” When you partake communion, you’re partaking Christ, and that heals your body. When you partake Jesus how can you stay weak? … sick? … And so tonight, as we partake communion, we’re not partaking bread. We’re partaking what He said we would be partaking of: “This is my body.”3

While Benny Hinn would not be considered a Catholic by his followers, the previous statement indicates he has been influenced by the Catholic teaching of the Eucharistic Christ. Hinn’s ministry has had a powerful influence on people all over the world. It will be interesting to see if his acceptance of transubstantiation and the Presence of Christ in the Eucharist will become more and more apparent.

It should be noted, however, that the Catholic Church does not teach that transubstantiation occurs when a Protestant minister does a communion service. On the contrary, the official teaching is that only a Catholic priest has the power to perform this transformation of the bread and wine. So, in Benny Hinn’s case, he cannot perform the sacrament of the Eucharist even if he believes he is doing so. This places Hinn in an incredibly stalemated position, because if our position  is correct, then he is in error to believe in transubstantiation; but if he is right about transubstantiation, then he is wrong according to Catholic teaching to think he can perform it. And even if he were to become Catholic, he still could not perform the Eucharist because only the celibate can become priests.

Peter Kreeft’s Catholic Conversion

Peter Kreeft, Ph.D., a professor of philosophy at Boston College and a regular contributor to several Christian publications, is in wide demand as a speaker at conferences and is the author of over forty books dealing with spirituality, apologetics and philosophy.4 Kreeft, once a Dutch Reformed Protestant, converted to Catholicism and is considered by many to be a leader in the area of Christian apologetics, even by Protestants. One of Kreeft’s books is Ecumenical Jihad. The back cover of this book lists a number of endorsements by well-known evangelical leaders. For example:

Peter Kreeft is one of the premier apologists in America today, witty, incisive and powerful. On the front lines in today’s culture war, Kreeft is one of our most valiant intellectual warriors.5
—Chuck Colson

This racy little book opens up a far-reaching theme. With entertaining insight Kreeft looks into the attitudes, alliances and strategies that today’s state of affairs requires of believers. Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox alike need to ponder Peter Kreeft’s vision of things—preferably in discussion together. What if he is right?6—J. I. Packer

To understand Kreeft’s spiritual journey, it is helpful to examine a number of testimonial statements he made in Ecumenical Jihad.  Regarding the role that the Eucharist played in his conversion to Catholicism, he writes:

In my pilgrimage from Dutch Reformed Calvinism to Roman Catholicism, the one Catholic dogma that most drew me in was the Eucharist.7

Now, as a strong promoter of the Catholic Church, Kreeft believes the teaching of transubstantiation and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist has potential for winning other Protestants back to the Mother of All Churches. Although he recognizes the Catholic Church’s view on the Sacrament of the Eucharist was instrumental in bringing about division between Protestants and Catholics in the past, he believes the Eucharist has the potential to now be an evangelistic tool in bringing back the separated brethren to Catholicism. As he states in his book:

No Catholic dogma is so distinctive and so apparently anti-ecumenical as the dogma of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Yet this dogma may be the greatest cause of ecumenism and eventual reunion.7

Predicting that future ecumenism will be fostered by the very factors that once brought about division, Kreeft continues:

I found that this doctrine, which seemed to repel and divide, at the same time attracted and united. The same with Mary: she—who is a point of division between Catholics and Protestants—she may bring the churches together again and heal the tears in her Son’s visible body on earth, she, the very one who seems to divide Catholics from Protestants. The most distinctive Catholic doctrines, especially those concerning the Eucharist and Mary, may prove to be the most unifying and attracting ones.9

Kreeft expresses his heartfelt concern for those Protestants who still refuse to accept the Catholic teaching of the Real Presence of Christ in a wafer. He writes:

When I think how much my Protestant brothers and sisters are missing in not having Christ’s Real Presence in the Eucharist; when I kneel before the Eucharist and realize I am as truly in Christ’s presence as the apostles were but that my Protestant brothers and sisters don’t know that, don’t believe that—I at first feel a terrible gap between myself and them. What a tremendous thing they are missing!10

As there is even now a move by many Protestant/evangelicals toward Catholicism and the Eucharistic adoration, Kreeft’s longing to see them enter in may be fulfilled.

There are countless other testimonies like Kreeft’s who have had an encounter with the Eucharistic Christ. The New Evangelization program presently underway is definitely showing signs of success. Numerous other testimonies could be presented that confirm a mystical addictive spiritual power that seems to be drawing people to the Eucharistic Christ.

In almost every recorded conversion account, there exists a common denominator. Each person who has converted to the Catholic Church has done so based on profound, powerful, and often gratifying experiences. These people were first drawn by a feeling that they were missing some deeper spiritual encounter, while the Eucharistic experience brought a sense of satisfaction and fulfillment.

An experience-based Christianity focused on signs and wonders associated with the Eucharistic Christ is clearly influencing many Protestants and evangelicals.

Endnotes:
1. Sharon E. Cheston, Mary the Mother of All: Protestant Perspectives and Experiences of Medjugorje (Chicago, IL: Loyola University Press, 1994), section written by Steven Muse, p. 57, emphasis in the original.
2. Benny Hinn with Steve Brock, This is Your Day (700 Club Studios, Virginia Beach, VA, March 29, 2000), television broadcast.
3. Praise The Lord Show (Trinity Broadcasting Network, December 27, 1994).
4. See http://www.peterkreeft.com/about.htm.
5. Peter Kreeft, Ecumenical Jihad ( San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press, 1996), back cover, endorsement by Chuck Colson
6. Ibid., endorsement by J. I. Packer.
7. Ibid., p. 145.
8. Ibid.
9. Ibid., p. 158.
10. Ibid., p. 159.

To read about more Protestant conversions to Catholicism, read Another Jesus by Roger Oakland.

Is Beth Moore’s “Spiritual Awakening” Taking the Evangelical Church Toward Rome?

Editor’s Note: Lighthouse Trails bears no animosity toward Catholics. We have a genuine love and concern for them. However, we are obliged to speak up about the teachings of the Catholic Church, especially as we witness the “emerging” of Protestantism and Catholicism, which is taking place via Christian leaders today.


Thomas Merton

Anyone who has studied contemplative spirituality from a critical and biblical point of view for any length of time knows that those who practice contemplative prayer eventually begin to have propensities toward Catholicism. That makes sense given that the mystical prayer practice came out of the Roman Catholic monasteries (via Thomas Merton, Basil Pennington, Thomas Keating, etc) and dates back as far as the ancient Catholic desert fathers.  And it is a fact that the Catholic church is using contemplative prayer to “bring back the lost brethren to the Mother church.” In one article written by Ray Yungen titled “Contemplative Spirituality – the Source of the Catholic Church’s Expansion,”  Yungen states:

I had always been confused as to the real nature of this advance in the Catholic church. Was this just the work of a few mavericks and renegades, or did the church hierarchy sanction this practice? My concerns were affirmed when I read in an interview that the mystical prayer movement not only had the approval of the highest echelons of Catholicism but also was, in fact, the source of its expansion.

If it is indeed true that practicing contemplative prayer can turn one’s eyes toward Romish thoughts and beliefs, then it would make sense that Bible-believing Christians would be greatly concerned about popular evangelical leaders who are promoting contemplative spirituality. One of those leaders (in fact the most popular Bible study leader in America according to a Christianity Today article), Beth Moore, has been a contemplative advocate for some time as we document in our 2008 article “Why We Say Beth Moore is a Contemplative Advocate.” And it isn’t just Lighthouse Trails who is saying that Beth Moore is connected to contemplative prayer. In fact, in 2010, Christianity Today came out with a cover story about Beth Moore and identified her as part of the contemplative prayer movement. So this point is really beyond debate. Moore’s own ministry has even admitted that they see nothing wrong with contemplative spirituality ala Richard Foster as we showed in our 2008 article (see link above).

Pope Francis with several evangelical leaders including James Robison, Tony Palmer, and Kenneth Copeland

With that said, we know that Beth Moore has been influenced strongly by Catholic contemplative mystic the late Brennan Manning as she admits in her book When Godly People Do Ungodly Things. Moore has also been a regular guest on James and Betty Robison’s show for a number of years now. The Robison’s have made statements in  that show their comradeship to the Catholic church. For instance, in a May 2014 article written by James Robison on his website titled “Pope Francis on Life Today,” Robison states:

I believe in the importance of unity among those who know Christ, who profess to be “Christians.” . . .  I believe there is an important spiritual awakening beginning in the hearts of those truly committed to Christ in the Protestant and Catholic communities. Is it possible that Pope Francis may prove to be an answer not only to the prayers of Catholics, but also those known as Protestants?

In that article by Robison, he made a reference to the recently deceased Anglican recruiter for the Catholic church, Tony Palmer. Robison stated: “One of his [the Pope] very best friends, Bishop Tony Palmer, whom we have supported in mission outreaches for years, shares the message that Pope Francis asked him to deliver to evangelicals and protestant believers” (emphasis added). In an article titled, “Protestants Who Don’t Unite With Catholics are Guilty of “Spiritual Racism” by Lighthouse Trails author, John Lanagan, Lanagan stated that Tony Palmer  “claims he has been “consecrated” by Pope Francis to be a bridge for further unity among Protestants and Catholics.” Lanagan posted a video (see below) of Palmer  wherein Palmer stated, “[t]he protest of Luther is over. And therefore now we are all living in a post-Protestant era…” (8:00 in video) and “The Protestants who disagree are suffering from “spiritual racism.” (8:40) Palmer, who claimed Pope Francis was his mentor, died a few weeks ago in a motorcycle accident.

 

“Spiritual awakening” is becoming a “mantra” within evangelical Christianity. Terms like One, Awaken, Awake, Great Awakening, Spiritual Awakening, are being broadcasted throughout Christianity today. While it is a good thing to desire true repentance and revival, how can leaders who embrace a mystical spirituality and who don’t understand spiritual deception (and are even participating in spiritual deception) help bring about true revival?

Beth Moore spoke at Robison’s  Awake Now Conference in February of 2014, and she expressed her belief that God showed her there was a great spiritual awakening coming. Interestingly, Moore warned that audience of over 4000 people about those who would question this great awakening and “downpour”:

But we must be prepared in advance for scoffers. I will say that again. We must be prepared in advance for scoffers. And here’s the thing. The unbelieving world scoffing is not going to bother us that much. We’re used to them thinking that we are idiots. Can we just own that one? We’re used to it. Of course, they think that. We’ve got that one down. That’s not what’s going to bother us so much. What’s going to bother us, and I believe God is saying, “Get prepared for it so you know in advance it is coming” so when it does happen you’re not all disturbed and all rocked by it because it is going to come from some in our own Christian realm — our own brothers and sisters. We’re going to have people that are honestly going to want to debate and argue with us about awakening and downpours. What do you want here? They’re going to say, that’s not the way it should look. You know what, dude? I’m just asking you, are you thirsty?

Are you hungry? I can’t think of the way to the semantics to get it like you want it. But I will say to you, I’m just thirsty and I’m hungry. But there will be scoffers and they will be the far bigger threat, the one within our own brothers and sisters, our own family of God — far, far more demoralizing. And yes, it will come from bullies, and yes, it will come from the mean-spirited.

By saying these things, Beth Moore is setting the stage to marginalize discerning Christians who would question this great “spiritual awakening.” This is typical of a hyper-charismatic/Word of Faith mentality that teaches it is wrong to question a supposed move of God. It is also similar to New Age teachings that call “scoffers” a cancer that must be eliminated or Rick Warren’s teachings on how to deal with “resisters.” In other words, no one should dare challenge the leaders of this coming spiritual awakening.

An important question to ask is, does Beth Moore have the same propensities as James Robison when it comes to unity with the Catholic church to help bring about a great awakening? We believe the answer to that is “Yes!” We believe that partly because of her contemplative affinities; but also, take a look at this video clip of Moore where she identifies the Catholic Church as part of the community of Christian churches. As you watch this video, keep in mind how contemplatives become more and more ecumenical and interspiritual the longer they are engaged in contemplative spirituality.

Evangelical leaders are praying for a great spiritual awakening, and many, such as Moore, are predicting that it is coming. But as we asked when we wrote our analysis of Jonathan Cahn’s The Harbinger, what will such an awakening or revival look like? In our article, we stated the following:

We were trying to picture what America’s repentance might look like. We got a taste of it right after 9/11 when we witnessed a rallying call to an ecumenical interfaith patriotism; and as a result, America remained proud but there was no true repentance. So, given the state of the nation today, here is a list of what we can envision our national repentance might look like:

A Purpose Driven 40 Days of Repentance

or . . .

The Jonah Plan: Repent in 40 Days — with invitations for New Age speakers to come and instruct the church on how to repent.

A National Day of Mourning over our “Sins” as a Nation — where Buddhist monks, Muslims, Evangelicals, and Catholics will flock together to ask God for forgiveness for not being more united to the universal God.

A World-Wide Contemplative-Prayer Repentance Day — where all the major Christian leaders now promoting contemplative prayer will rally together with New Agers and Buddhists alike to meditate world-wide on that day, in “vibrationally sympathetic harmony,” in order to experience true “Oneness” with mankind, creation, and the god in all.

And we add to that list of pseudo-revivals a Beth Moore/James Robison kind of spiritual awakening that will include Pope Francis and the Catholic Church.

If this supposed coming awakening lines up with those who will be leading it, (e.g., Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Beth Moore, Bill Johnson, Kenneth Copeland, Ruth Haley Barton, etc.),  then it will be an ecumenical, mystical move toward unity with not just the Roman Catholic church but with all faiths, and in order to bring about this kind of awakening, millions of people will have to go along with it.

While Beth Moore and other Christian leaders are closing the gap between Christianity and Catholicism, we should remember the saints who went before us and who paid with their blood when they stood faithfully for the Gospel and would not bend to the demands of the papacy (see Foxe’s story of Mrs. Prest as an example).


Note: So many Christians do not understand what the Catholic church teaches. Even many Catholics do not understand. If you have not read Roger Oakland’s book Another Jesus: the eucharistic christ and the new evangelization, it is imperative to understand why biblical Christianity is not equivalent to Roman Catholicism. To help make sure that all of our readers have a copy of this vital book, for the next few days, our bookstore will offer it for 75% off retail. This will make it $3.23 instead of $12.95 (plus shipping).  Use this code: AJ-75 to get that discount (will expire 8/18).

Related Articles:

New Spirituality for an Awakening Planet? by Berit Kjos

How the “Quantum Christ” (God is in everything) is Transforming the World . . . and Entering the Church!  by Warren B. Smith

Why the Catholic (and Emerging Church) “Eucharist” Does Not Line Up With Scripture

By Roger Oakland

The Catholic Church teaches that once a Catholic priest  has consecrated the wafer of bread during Communion, the wafer turns into the literal and real body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ.1 Therefore, the Communion Host is no longer bread but Jesus, under the appearance of bread and is therefore worthy of adoration and worship. The Catholic Catechism states succinctly:

In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.”2

The Church and the world have a great need for Eucharistic worship. Jesus awaits us in this sacrament of love. Let us not refuse the time to go to meet him in adoration, in contemplation full of faith, and open to making amends for the serious offenses and crimes of the world. Let our adoration never cease.3

What Does the Bible Teach About the Lords Supper?

We have documented [in Another Jesus] what the Catholic Church teaches concerning the Eucharist. But what does the Bible teach? The Bible encourages believers to study “all the counsel of God”(Acts 20:27) and to “[p]rove all things; hold fast that which is good” (I Thessalonians 5:21). And as believers, we are admonished to:

 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (II Timothy 2:15)

With these instructions in mind, let us search the Scriptures to determine what the Bible teaches concerning the Lord’s supper.

The Last Supper was celebrated by first century Christians in obedience to Jesus’ words “this do in remembrance of me” (Luke 22:19). This observance was established by the Lord at the Last Supper when He symbolically offered Himself as the Paschal Lamb of atonement. His actual death the next day fulfilled the prophecy. Only Paul uses the phrase “Lord’s supper” (I Corinthians 11:20), while the Church fathers began to call the occasion the Eucharist meaning thanksgiving from the blessing pronounced over the bread and wine after about A.D. 100. Christians have celebrated the Lord’s Supper regularly as a sign of the new covenant sealed by Christ’s death and resurrection.4 Today, the Eucharist means far more than simply thanksgiving.

This is My Body

To what exactly did Jesus ordain during the Last Supper? The Bible states:

 [Jesus] took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. (Luke 22: 19-20)

Proponents of the Catholic Eucharist point to Jesus’ words recorded in John 6. Though this chapter does not deal with the Last Supper, Jesus’ words, which are taken to relate to the Communion meal, are as follows:

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. (John 6:51-55)

 Just what do these Scriptures mean? The answer to that can be found in our examination of the Word of God itself.5

Metaphors and Similes

Throughout the Bible, context determines meaning. Bible-believing Christians know to take the Bible literally, unless the context demands a figurative or symbolic interpretation. Before exploring Jesus’ words in John chapter 6 and elsewhere, let’s review a few examples of symbolism in the Scriptures. All scholars would agree that the following verses are metaphorical. An explanation follows each verse:

 O taste and see that the LORD is good. (Psalm 34:8; Try to experience God’s promises to find if they are true.)

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14; For those who receive the gift of salvation, Christ’s Spirit shall dwell in their souls assuring them of everlasting life.)

 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll. (Ezekiel 3:1, 2; Receive into your heart, internalize, and obey God’s Word.)

And I could go on and on with one example after the next. At one point Jesus said, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up” (John 2:19). The Jews thought He spoke of the literal temple in Jerusalem, but if we keep reading, we find that Jesus was referring to His body (John 2:20-21). On another occasion, Jesus said, “I am the true vine” (John 15:1). Of course, we know that Jesus did not mean that He was a literal grape vine twisting around a post. When the Bible says God hides us under His wings (Psalm 91:4), we know that God is not a bird with feathers. God is the source of all life and our provider and protector, and these figures vividly illustrate this.

Throughout the Bible, figurative language is used to compare one thing to another so that the listeners can easily understand. In fact, the Bible tells us that Jesus regularly used parables to figuratively describe one thing as something else (Matthew 13:34).Jesus Himself stated, “These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs” (John 16:25). The Bible should always be interpreted literally unless the context demands a symbolic explanation. So what does the context of John’s Gospel and the other Gospels demand?

John Chapter 6: The Bread of Heaven

If we read the entire sixth chapter of John’s Gospel, we not only get the context, but also some startling insights into what Jesus meant when He said we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. John 6 begins with the account of Jesus feeding five thousand, followed by the account of Jesus walking on water. On the following day, people were seeking Jesus for the wrong reasons, which we understand from Jesus’ words in verses 26 and 27:

 Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life.

 These verses begin to frame the context of the verses that follow, specifically, that Jesus emphasized the need for them to seek eternal life. Jesus goes on to explain to them how to obtain eternal life. And in verse 28, when the people ask Jesus, “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” Jesus replies, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” (vs. 29).

Here Jesus specifies only one work that pleases God, namely, belief in Jesus. Jesus reemphasizes this in verse 35 when he states: “I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.”Notice the imperative is to “cometh to me” and “believeth on me.” Jesus repeats the thrust of His message in verse 40 where He states:

 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus could not be clearer—by coming to Him and trusting in Him, we will receive eternal life. At this point in the narrative, the Jews complained about Him because He said: “I am the bread which came down from heaven” (vs. 41). Jesus responds to their murmuring when He states that He is indeed the “living bread” and that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood to obtain eternal life (vs. 42-58). However, let’s remember the context of this statement. First, Jesus contrasts Himself with the manna that rained down on their fathers and sustained them for their journey. But their fathers have since died. But Jesus now offers Himself as the living, heavenly bread, causing those who eat of Him to live forever.

Jesus is not the perishable manna that their descendants ate in the wilderness—He is the eternal bread of life that lives forever. Only by partaking in His everlasting life can we hope to live with Him forever. This contrast strengthens His main message, where Jesus says, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (vs. 47). Notice, Jesus said that as soon as we believe in Him we have—present tense—eternal life. It is not something we aim at or hope we might attain in the future, but rather, something we receive immediately upon accepting Him by faith.

When Jesus said these words, He was in the synagogue in Capernaum, and He had neither bread nor wine. Therefore Jesus was either commanding cannibalism, or He was speaking figuratively. If He was speaking literally, then He would be directly contradicting God the Father: “But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat”(Genesis 9:4). Therefore, because Jesus Himself said, “[T]he scripture cannot be broken”(John 10:35), He must be speaking metaphorically. And that is exactly how He explains His own words in the subsequent verses.

The Flesh Profits Nothing

After this, in verse 60 (of John 6), we find that many of His disciples said: “This is an hard saying; who can hear it?” Jesus was aware of their complaints and He responded saying:

Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. (vs. 61-64)

Wait a minute, the flesh profits nothing! I thought Jesus said we must eat His flesh? Yet, if the flesh profits nothing, Jesus must be speaking in spiritual terms. And that is what He says: “[T]he words that I speak unto you, they are spirit.”

Jesus uses the exact same Greek word for flesh (sarx) as He did in the preceding verses. Therefore, He is emphatically stating that eating His literal flesh profits nothing! If the Lord Himself sets the context of the dialogue, we would do well to hear Him. He said that the words He speaks are spirit and that the flesh profits nothing. In other words, Jesus has just told us He has spoken in a metaphor, so we need not guess at it.

If that isn’t clear enough, Peter’s words add further clarity. Immediately following the dialogue with the Jews, in which some disciples left, Jesus said to the remaining twelve apostles, “Will ye also go away? ” (vs. 67). Peter’s response is profound:

 Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. (vs. 68-69)

Amazing! Peter did not say we have come to believe that we must eat Your flesh to live. He said that we know You are the Christ, and we have come to believe in You as the Christ. This is the confession of faith that leads to eternal life, not eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking His blood. It also agrees with the totality of Scripture.

 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:9)

 [W]hat must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. (Acts 16:30, 31)

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life. (John 3:36)

To understand more fully the Catholic Eucharist versus biblical communion and salvation, read Roger Oakland’s book, Another Jesus.

Related Articles:

The Missionary Goal of the Catholic Church

Mrs. Prest – She Said No to Apostasy and Became a Martyr

The New Evangelization and the Coming Reign of the Eucharist Christ

 

Another Look at the Catholic Church

By Steve Blackwell
Indywatchman Blog

Some things are worth repeating. Dave Hunt wrote a book twenty years ago called A Woman Rides the Beast that needs to be revisited. I have friends who have joined the Catholic Church because they were seeking religion, and they have, without a doubt, found the ultimate religion. In Dave’s book he shows accurately with very much Biblical documentation that this ultimate religion, the Catholic Church, is in fact the woman who rides the beast, a whore who has committed fornication with the kings of the earth.

In 1993 Dave recorded a pre-book video lecture which I have embedded. Take a look at the video and I believe you will find it very, very hard to argue with Dave’s interpretation of Revelation 17:7. Click here for the source of this posting.


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